points of view

[kitanzi]

I keep running into many little things that remind me I'm not where I used to be. Some of these may be north vs south, some may be small town vs cityish, some may be as simple as my old job vs my new job, some may just be me being a bit out of synch, as I so often am. But all that's really a subject for another post - that's not really what I meant to be gong on about here.
In the final few minutes before I left work today, one of the friendlier women there was chattering on about how she needed to have lower standards so she could find herself a man. She wants, quite seriously, someone over 6', "manly" (which she translated for me as aggressive), an engineer (though I suspect she'd settle for anyone with what she considers an equivalent high income), childless, 27-33 years old, and a pile of other things that escape me now. I was mostly just smiling and making amused comments and trying not to sound TOO amused. I mentioned I had a tall boyfriend myself, though that hadn't been one of my requirements. She babbled happily on for a few minutes, then suddenly asked me when I was getting married.
Um, I'm not. I told her this, and you would have thought I had told her I butcher babies for a hobby. She did try to be tactful, I'll give her points for that, but she honestly couldn't figure out what was wrong with me. When I asked her why I should, and added that I didn't want kids, so that wasn't a consideration, she was (momentarily!) speechless. I was saved by a last minute incoming call, but her explicitly repeated point was that if I was "fulfilling the role of a wife" (nice euphemism) then why ever wasn't I getting married and having kids? Was something WRONG?
Yep, this is the bible belt. I know it, and mostly overlook it. Many of my coworkers have biblical quotations up on their cubes, and I've deflected a few inquiries on religion. (In fairness, I was doing that back in NH anyhow, because that's one of the topics I find almost never stays a discussion - it degenerates into an argument.) On the other hand, I know more pagans here than I did there, and at least as many poly folks.
I guess my original point - I did have one! - was to wonder how many other people, wherever they are, have run into the default expectation of marriage and kids, and similar horrified what's-wrong-with-you reactions if they weren't interested? Is it regional thing? A generational thing? Just me?

Comments

[browngirl.livejournal.com]

I get "when are you getting married?" ALL the time. And you've seen my take on the religion thing, which is at least less frequent. But, then, I work with conservative lower- middle class women, most of whom are my parents' age, so nu. I sometimes almost feel guilty about wanting kids because that tends to 'redeem' me in these people's eyes. Bleh; there are some people whose dislike of one is a compliment.

With huggles,
A.

[kitanzi.livejournal.com]

Well, I don't think she dislikes me. In fact, like I said, she's one of the nicer and friendlier people there - she was just unable to wrap her mind around the idea of not wanting to be married or a mother. I dunno, I just have a persistent feeling of not quite fitting in this place. No one's been outright unpleasant, really, it's just... I dunno. As for age, she's at least 5 years younger than I am, which was part of the surprise.

[maedbh7.livejournal.com]

I get that in Ohio very often. And I -have- a kid. Thing is, people don't get the "No, he and I aren't getting married." "He's free to have more children if he wants them...so long as he has them with someone else." "Because, while I love children, I don't so much love infants." "He's already legitimately a child." "He already has his father's last name." "We already live in the same house." "No, we aren't married." "Because I don't want to marry him, and he doesn't want to marry me." "Yeah, well, when I want another one, I'll adopt."

I could have bought Ohio from America if I had a dollar for everytime I've had to answer that set of questions. I get the wierdest looks from my standard answer, "I love children; I just hate infants. Let's make a deal: I'll birth it, you raise it until it's 3, then I'll take it back.

[browngirl.livejournal.com]

Well, I don't think she dislikes me.

Yeah, I was prolly projecting a touch by then. :) It is interesting, the things people Just Can't Grok. My younger coworkers are a *little* more open-minded....but not very.

Just remember that you're not weird, you're just living your life for you and not by someone else's unchallenged script. :) Well, ok, you're also weird, but that has nothing to do with it. :D

A.

[bardling.livejournal.com]

I've been saying that I want to neither get married nor have kids for about 15 years now. Mostly I used to get friendly "oh, you'll change your opinion overe time" reactions, especially to the kids part... and... I haven't changed my opinion. I've learned to like, even have a certain kind of family-love-feeling-thing for some kids (well behaved youngsters of friends) - and I still don't want any kids of my own. I will not argue that I might or might not change my opinion on wanting to get married, but again - so far I haven't. Amongst the filkers I've met the most understanding, open, accepting behaviour, but my experience of filkers has been of an exceptionally tolerant, supportive, warm group nof people.

Other than that, I cannot say I've been able to pin down reactions to location/country or anything very much. But for groups of people like tends to drift towards like...

Anyhow *hugs* to you and I hope you still like where you are now and will discover more and more things to like about it! *morehugs*

The UK is *different*

[the-magician.livejournal.com]

When I was a child, it was still considered "wrong" to be born out of wedlock ... but in the last 20-30 years in the UK, marriage went out of fashion.

Some figures: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1676313.stm (Nov 2001)
"In 1989 seven out of 10 people believed children should be born in wedlock, but now only 54% do, according to the annual survey by the National Centre for Social Research."

"A quarter of those interviewed thought married couples made better parents than unmarried ones.
A clear majority (67%) thought cohabitation was acceptable, even if a couple did not intend to get married."

"Six out of 10 young people thought marriage was still the best kind of relationship, said the survey. But they were unconvinced about the need for marriage, with only a third of 18- to 24-year-olds thinking marriage should precede parenthood"

"The survey also found that 91% of cohabitants did not have written agreements about their shares in the ownership of the family home, leaving many without entitlement if the relationship broke down or partner died." (NOTE: UK law! There is no "common law marriage" as 60% of UK people surveyed believed to exist and so no legal rights for the cohabiting partner unless this is put into writing)

And in a different article http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1502007.stm
"The ONS said the proportion of failed marriages for couples both wed for the first time also dropped to 70% last year, compared to a level of 82% in 1981."
However
"In 1971, 404,000 people got married and 74,000 got divorced. This compares to 263,000 marriages in 1999 and 144,000 divorces."

And finally: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/692150.stm
"Almost four in 10 babies are now born outside of marriage"

Re:

[kitanzi.livejournal.com]

The finest kind of weird, huh? Thank you, dear.

kids

[kitanzi.livejournal.com]

I never have wanted kids, just was never inclined so. I love other people's kids, and having fun spoiling them, and when circumstances made me a full time step-mom I did pretty well, I think, including when one of the girls moved in with us for a couple years. Still, kids have never been on my to-do list. I'd rather be an aunt than a mom. :)

Re: The UK is *different*

[kitanzi.livejournal.com]

That's very interesting! Cultural differences indeed... but seeing I just got settled in here, I think here is where I'm staying. :) Still, wow.

Aye

[drishnak.livejournal.com]

We're not having kids, and I get the strange looks all the time. We have an excuse for not birthin' any babies, but that just leads to "Well, when are you going to adopt?"

Not "Do you want to adopt?" WHEN.

If I'm feeling especially cranky I'll go off on my tirade concerning the nearly unsurmountable difficulties and outrageous expense of adopting children as contrasted to the ease with which any crack-addled whore drops a new welfare expense into the system, but that just leads to people thinking I want to but can't/won't pay for it.

Tall Men/Short Women

[the-magician.livejournal.com]

Again, all this is based on UK surveys ... but this was in TODAY's news!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/2190461.stm
Tall men 'top husband stakes'

"They say taller men are more sexually attractive and are more likely to father children"

"It seems that tall men and petite women are favoured in evolutionary terms, even in a modern population, so the height difference between men and women is unlikely to disappear," says Daniel Nettle of the Open University

Lots more interesting stuff at the link given above ...

"A man of 1.83m (6'1") was more likely to have children than an average man of 1.77m (5'8"). Women, though, were most likely to be married and have children if they were below the average height of 1.62 m (5'3")."

Re: Tall Men/Short Women

[kitanzi.livejournal.com]

5' 3" is considered average for women?!? Is this specifically in the UK? I always thought I was just at the top end of average, at 5' 7".

Kids, marriage, etc.

[zencuppa.livejournal.com]

I've never *wanted* kids and for years dealt with stating that openly. And when I got blank looks (in Michigan and Ohio) I pointed out that children are such a serious responsiblity that I wouldn't have them just because it was "expected of me."

And (yes) now I've got a little boy.

But I've got a child because I found the specific situation in which I was willing and interested in having one, with a father who adores children and a lifestyle that allows both of us to spend significant amounts of time with our son, Nick.

In reality, I don't think it's anyone's business of whether you choose to get married or not, or have a child or not, and I've said that by stating "That's a personal decision between me and my SO, etc." I know it's a bit "in your face" but that's how I choose to handle it.

I suspect that in Atlanta, it's probably a good idea to just avoid these topics all together because it's the bible belt . . .

I've been known to say (when asked about my beliefs) "Oh, I was raised Catholic"

Which *is* true

[(Anonymous)]

Oy, Kitanzi! Maybe your entry should have been titled "can of worms". I'm not
referring to any of the comments received, but to the subjects you've broached.

In general, I'd say this default expectation is a human thing, but one that can be
affected by geography or generation. Or culture, as in religion? Yes, you do live
in the bible belt, but can you spell Puritan? And although you do live near a big
cosmopolitan city, not all the residents therein will be cosmopolitan.

While one might expect younger people to be less hide bound than the older
generation (each generation thinks this?), your co-worker sounds definitely
pre-feminist, and this despite her age. Maybe culture is overriding generational
influences? My spouse told me of a co-worker who was shushing people at work
because they were taking the Lord's name in vain (saying "Oh God" or "God damn").
The co-worker was young and well educated. Uh, and from Texas. [grin?]

I find this whole marriage / macho protector / biddable woman / continue the
species attitude more than a bit prehistoric, but it's obviously a YMMV thing. And,
as you say, something that can easily degenerate into an argument.

Yes, I'm married; our choice - definite legal advantages there. At our age (we
ain't young), people assume we MUST be married by now. :)

But no, we're childless (child free?); mostly my choice, but enforced by a chance
of biology. And yes, we frequently get asked "How many children?". Not "Do you
have children?". Truth be told, either question coming from someone not family or
not family-by-choice is somewhat impertinent (IMHO), but all too common. No one's
ever been tactless enough to actually ask "What's wrong with you?", but...

Anyway. I know you know how to march to a different accordion, and how to deal
with being a member of an invisible minority; as do I. Community (fannish, filkish,
pagan, poly..., not political entity), and your own inner strength and the strength
of your loved ones.

Carry on, corporal.
Ann Onynous (who may indeed know how to spell that last name)

PS - Average height for a man or a woman is best expressed as a range, I believe.

PPS - Your co-worker's euphemism (fulfilling the role of a wife) sounds recreational,
but then she goes on about getting married and being procreational. Eh. My own
interest has always been the former. [EG]

PPPS - Hey, why be normal

[figmo.livejournal.com]

First of all, maybe 5'3" is "normal" for the UK, but it's the tall end of "petite" in the U.S. Your height, 5'7", is tall. Heck, you're less than an inch shorter than my father was, and you're taller than my brother and my maternal grandfather.

Re: the marriage and children thing, when I was married we often got asked why we didn't have kids. I am soooo glad I didn't reproduce that man's genes!

As for your co-worker not understanding your viewpoint, that's no biggie. You don't have to understand someone's viewpoint to accept them. I want to be married. I can understand your trepidation of it, given that you and autographedcat haven't been together for very long.

I have a harder time understanding folks who choose to have kids out of wedlock, but it's more because of the labels I've seen placed on the poor kids and their parents. I've always cared about that kind of thing wrt myself; it's not necessarily good that I do, but I do. I probably would've gotten divorced a lot sooner had I not had to spend years bracing myself to deal with labels like "slut" and being treated like pond scum for being a -- gasp -- divorcee, even though I had been a battered wife. It's been 15 years and I still get it, althought not as much as I used to.

I have friends who choose different lifestyles for themselves than I choose (or would choose) for mine. That's their right. It's not my job to understand them. They're my friends.

Haven't found a link yet but ...

[the-magician.livejournal.com]

I recall in the 80's being told that the US averages were 5'4" for women and 5'8" for men (and don't forget to allow for the large number of non-whites in the US, since they, on average, tend to be shorter than Europeans, particulary the asians ... though the number of tall asians is (sorry!) "growing" as new generations get higher protien diets and better medical care). But of course the "black" Americans tend to be taller (on average) and I can't find a decent site on the web (in half an hour of searching) with proper accessible figures ...

One weight/height site I just looked at (for correct body weight for height) had women devided into 5'2" and below, 5'2" to 5'5" and above 5'5", so that sounds like a confirmation of the approximate ranges. http://www.iowaclinic.com/adam/ency/article/001938.shtml

I've found that the Japanese stats are 5'5.2" for males and 5'0.2" for females, and only 0.02% of Japanese women are 5'7" or taller.

Found a page that says (with citations!) http://www.plimoth.org/Library/l-short.htm
"A study published in Britain in 1988, using data compiled from 1981, determined that the average height in the modern British population was 173.8 cm. [67.78 inches or 5’ 7 ¾"] for males and 160.9 cm. [62.75 inches or 5’ 2 ¾"] for females. For modern white Americans, the average stature for males is 69.1", or just over 5’ 9", and for women, 63.7", or about 5’ 3 ¾".

Note that the American stat was for WHITE Americans (my emphasis).

Re: Haven't found a link yet but ...

[figmo.livejournal.com]

Here's one:

http://www.wonderquest.com/size-women-us.htm (http://www.wonderquest.com/size-women-us.htm)

Re:

[kitanzi.livejournal.com]

Sir, Yes, Sir, General! Well, given that one of the major points of the whole discussion was sparked by me saying I wasn't having kids, I would say the euphemism was definitely referring to recreation, which is admittedly my own interest.

[cellio]

Ooh, yeah. I can relate. I didn't grow up in the bible belt, but our little enclave of suburbia was quite solidly Roman Catholic, and I was "weird" for not wanting to grow up and be a mommy. My sister played with baby dolls; I played board games, read books, and played with my chemistry set. She wanted to be a cheerleader; I wanted to be valadictorian. I found the idea of having children utterly repulsive. (In adulthood this toned down to "well, I would never do it, but if my friends want to that's cool so long as they don't assume I'm going to get excited by it".)

I am in fact married, at my insistence actually. He was content to just live together; I said I wanted the formal commitment, and there were also some logistical things that just get much easier with a documentable marriage. We have no intention of having or adopting children.