Quietly seething

[kitanzi]

I live and work in the South now. I'm a Damn Yankee to my coworkers, though they are polite about it. I know perfectly well that my lifestyle, were I dumb enough to talk about it at work, would label me a freak and a deviant.

Right. So, I'm sitting here quietly sick and furious at myself after the discussion that was underway when I came in. NYC has opened a high school for GLBT students. The consensus in this department, with NOT ONE DISSENTING VOICE, is apparently that not only is this ridiculous, but "those people" should take the consequences of their choice of sexuality, and having children exposed to homosexuals will only corrupt them and cause them to be homosexual. Further (and coming from a half dozen black women, this seems the cream of it to me), "People should live with the laws as they are and not try to get new ones made to give them any more rights." They consider themselves very progressive for allowing "those people" to do what they want in their own homes, as long as they don't have kids or in any way affect the upbringing of any kids, since everyone knows that's what makes kids gay, and that's a terrible thing to any right thinking Christian.

I'm not making any of this up, and I don't know if I'm angrier at them, or at myself for sitting here and shutting up. Mostly I feel sick. I genuinely think that if I made the comments I made above, it would start a shitstorm that would end in me apologizing for everything I said (that I believed, and that would make me more sick than just not talking), or being fired for making trouble and being "racist".

I like these people, though I was considering just yesterday how none of them really feel like friends. Some of this was coming from the one person here that I seriously respect. I knew I didn't fit here - I had not had my face slammed into it quite so hard before, though.

Comments

[browngirl.livejournal.com]

Further (and coming from a half dozen black women, this seems the cream of it to me), "People should live with the laws as they are and not try to get new ones made to give them any more rights."

As a Black woman, I agree with you on the deep, vast, bottomless hypocrisy of this statement. As me, I agree with you on all of this. I know all too well how this feels, and I wish I knew what (besides forcible clue implants for certain folks) could make things better.

There are times when martyring oneself won't do anyone any good, and recognizing that is not cowardice.

*big tight hug*

A.
thinking of you

[kitanzi.livejournal.com]

Thank you - that means a lot to me, just now. *hug* I'm just furious, and frustrated, and split on what I feel like I SHOULD do, and I'm sitting here but I feel like I've got no outlet for any of that... so, I write an LJ post. I guess it's something, if not much.

[autographedcat.livejournal.com]

I know. There's idiots all around. One thing to keep in mind is that people can be basically good and still hold completely flawed opinions and beliefs. We can ignore those easier when they don't hit so close to home, like this one, but it is important to remember, at times. *snuggle*

FWIW, I also think it's not a very good idea to have a special school, but for exactly opposite reasons -- segregating the kids just reinforces to them, and more importantly to the straight kids, that there's something fundamentally wrong and different about being gay, and that it's ok to exclude them from mainstream society. I think it's more important to spend time and resources educating the mainstream that being gay is just like being blond or green eyed or left handed or what have you -- it's a characteristic, but it doesn't define a person or their worth.

And I think we're making very slow progress toward that goal, and I think that's WHY you're seeing so much more hysteria from the other side -- when things aren't changing, the opposition is quiet, because things are the way they'd like them to be.

[quadrivium.livejournal.com]

FWIW, I also think it's not a very good idea to have a special school, but for exactly opposite reasons -- segregating the kids just reinforces to them, and more importantly to the straight kids, that there's something fundamentally wrong and different about being gay, and that it's ok to exclude them from mainstream society. I think it's more important to spend time and resources educating the mainstream that being gay is just like being blond or green eyed or left handed or what have you -- it's a characteristic, but it doesn't define a person or their worth.

I agree. I wanted to say something like this yesterday, but didn't have the words. You have put it so elegantly.

[kitanzi.livejournal.com]

He does do that well. :) I'd agree with that as well... a number of people here have made a lot of points I agree with as to WHY it's a bad idea, so I haven't kept repeating them.

[kitanzi.livejournal.com]

Good points... I will especially concentrate on the first one, because I genuinely do like and respect Sandy - probably the only one here I could say that about.

[maedbh7.livejournal.com]

Of course, if you do decide to go all martyr about it (and put your job on the line), let me know. I can point you towards all kinds of useful resources and comebacks. *hugs* -H...(*whaps your co-workers with a karmic 2x4*)

[kitanzi.livejournal.com]

*sigh* I probably won't - if I were going to, it would have been in the heat of the first reaction. I am very, very bad at confrontation, and a) don't think of comebacks at the right time, and b) stammer and flub them if I try to think some up when I know ahead of time I'll want them. In any case - I probably would have by now if I were going to.

[adamselzer.livejournal.com]

I never cease to be amazed by the extent to which being homophobic is still socially acceptable.
But I think we've come along way. We've gone from outrage about Ellen to having Will and Grace being a big hit in just a few years. Not huge progress, or even real progress, but progress. Not like Canada's progress, though.

[kitanzi.livejournal.com]

Yeah, there is some progress and I know it. In the middle of this, though, it just doesn't seem like very much, you know?

[cellio]

Oh my. What a load of hypocritic crap.

But losing your job over speaking up is something you should only risk if your speaking up can do some good. It doesn't sound like this is the case here. If you think any of your coworkers have latent clues about this, you can talk with those ones privately. If not, you're not going to change any minds anyway, so speaking up for the sake of abstract defense won't do any good for anyone. (If, on the other hand, they were in the process of actually abusing someone, as opposed to just talking crap, that would be different.)

[kitanzi.livejournal.com]

Yes, that would absolutely be different. I haven't run into that but I am very sure I'd speak up on that.

[filkerdave.livejournal.com]

I happen to thing that a GLBT school is a frighteningly bad idea; "seperate but equal" is surely the former but rarely the latter.

That said, I think that gently asking if they've read any of the research on homosexuality being more likely inborn rather than a choice isn't out of line. (It's best to have sources on hand, and don't sound like "Ha ha ha! Don't you KNOW this? You're so STUPID!!!")*

(I do get this a bit, insofar as both of my kids are in scouts, and one thing I really DON'T like about the scouts is their attitude towards gays -- and I'm not shy about saying how wrong it is)




* I don't think you would

[kitanzi.livejournal.com]

Actually, one of the women involved did unbend so far as to say she thought it was probably not a choice anymore than being straight was - and was promptly tromped on by the others, who were sure that being gay was a choice and being straight couldn't possibly be. No logic but lots of vehemence. *shrug* It also happens to be her last day. Figures.

[kitanzi.livejournal.com]

She didn't seem to disagree with the idea that exposing kids to gays would cause them to be gay, though. Not sure on how she reconciles that - a latent gayness that is inborn but not expressed until they're corrupted?
(Still angry, yes, though not seething.)

[pocketnaomi.livejournal.com]

In theory I suppose this is possible. A load of crap, but not a logically impossible load of crap. I know people who are descended from alcoholics who have never touched liquor because they are afraid of what it might do to them.

[bardling.livejournal.com]

What a shitty situation to be in.

for what it's worth - I'm making assumptions based on the context as to what GLBT means, but I disagree with separate schools, I don't think they're a good idea, though I wouldn't obstruct people trying to achieve something positive in this way either. I also highly disagree with the further views expressed by your co-workers, but don't think you're a coward.

If you did want to do something, I think questioning would be better than disagreeing, confronting. You might get through to some of them on reflection, if they haven't turned their thin king of completely. Then again, by the sounds of it they're too busy agreeing on their views to think or consider them.

My stance would probably be quiet disagreement on a "my opinion isn't relevant to you people" basis. No use battering one's head against a wall of bricked up ears and brains. That doesn't achieve anything, except maybe to loose your job, if those people base who they hire on their beliefs. And that would be counterproductive.

*bhigghugs*

/me sighs at rigid stupidity

[kitanzi.livejournal.com]

GLBT means, as you probably figured, Gay/Lesbian/Bisexual/Transgendered. Questioning might or might not help... but it would be a more reasonable approach, once I figure how/when, which is not now while I am still likely to show that I am outright furious about this. I'm really most surprised at Sandy, usually the voice of reason around here. :(

[the-gwenzilliad.livejournal.com]

Hey, I'm a master of keeping my mouth shut. I did it in Boston where my (in-law) family and many coworkers had serious racial preudices, and I do it down here, where I am the minority (pagan, bisexual, polyamorous, kinky), and the current of social and political thought does not flow in my direction.

Some of the worst, most prejudiced statements I've ever heard have come out of the mouths of women, gay people, pagan people, etc.-- and that doesn't mean I've never heard them from White Males, but I'm often genuinely surprised (though I shouldn't be any more) when people whose differences make them the targets of prejudice do not say, "There but for the grace of [insert deity or icon here] go I." And every single one of us has differences that could open us up to being the target of prejudice.

Another point to remember-- and please, people, do not flame me for these observations: Atlanta has a very interesting Black-White dynamic. Even though black people are classed as a minority, the City of Atlanta, more than any other city I've ever lived in, is pretty much black owned and operated. My sense of many of the Atlanta-born black people that I've met, especially while I was doing that music teaching job a couple of years ago, where I had to deal with various beaurocracies in the City of Atlanta, is that the kinds of points of view you're hearing in your office are common and accepted: Atlanta's black population is confident in its place, yet still views itself as an underclass. Atlanta is a place where you just about have to be a minority to get a city contract, you just about have to be homeless to qualify for things like reduced income housing (I would not be able to get free or reduced income housing in the City of Atlanta, for example), the department of social services has been known to write down that a house is filthy because the coffee table isn't dusted, yet you just about have to be black to be elected Mayor. It's not just the south you're experiencing, although if you went out into the Boondocks, you'd see those attitudes from folks black and white alike, it's the south viewed through the very strange lens of Atlanta.

[the-gwenzilliad.livejournal.com]

PS: I think it is very easy, when you live somewhere else, to say that all the things wrong with the south are simply to do with its being the south, "where ignorant rednecks, the KKK, and conservative Bible-bangers run everything." It's very easy to shake your head at things that happen hundreds, maybe thousands of miles away from where you live and decide that it's not your problem or that you can wash your hands of it because you live someplace else, and "those things don't happen here." One, the reality of the south is far more complex and difficult to categorize; and two, those things /do/ happen there. In the same ways that New Yorkers are looked upon by the rest of the country as being callous and brusque and as likely to kill you as look at you, southerners as a group are considered ignorant and backward. There are liberals and progressives and openminded people down here, too-- we just don't have much say in the government, because we are in the minority.

[kitanzi.livejournal.com]

You'd know a lot more about it than I would - if you have a few minutes tonight, I'd love to talk to you about it?

[kitanzi.livejournal.com]

Or sometime - I just realized you have very timeconsuming plans for tonight. :)

[sdorn.livejournal.com]

Since I never can think of clever, polite, and eye-opening things to say at the time, I have to memorize the important bits ahead of time. My favorite for this is the formula suggested by Miss Manners, when hearing a prejudiced comment: "You may not be aware that my [relative] is [slurred adjectival label]." It does not matter, according to her, whether the statement is realistic or even plausible. So, in the future, my mother or father will be Black or GLBT when necessary to stop conversations, and so forth. And, if someone asks for additional comment, you can just say, "I thought you may not be aware of that, from what you were saying," and repeat that ad nauseam until the conversation turns to something else.

And, for "I wish I'd thunk of it at the time" ideas, ...

• You're right. A separate school is wrong. It might give people the wrong impression that being gay or lesbian is a choice.
  
• You're right. A separate school
is wrong. It might lead people to think that only those students in the separate school are gay or lesbian, and so many will use it as an excuse to ignore the rights of gay and lesbian students to be free of harassment and ignorant prejudices in any school.

• You're right. A separate school
is wrong. It would lead us down the road to "separate but equal" notions on sexual orientation. We've been down that road before in other areas of rampant discrimination.

Even if I wouldn't say those in reality, depending on how much I like my coworkers, I can still think of them.

[kitanzi.livejournal.com]

That's not a bad idea, I'll think about it, though I think I may actually skip that distancing level. I've been thinking a lot about it, and I'm a lousy liar. I'd rather tell the truth and deal than lie and be called out on it - I think that would shake down even worse.

As for the seperate school, my gut level reaction is that it's a bad idea for a lot of reasons, including that it would require all students to be very publically outed just by attending.

Wow, Kitanzi

[otherdeb.livejournal.com]

What a difficult situation.

If I may take a moment, I want to tell you how I handled a situation:

I was in the ob/gyn's office, with my feet up, and he came in and was smoking a cigar. I asked him to put it out, and his response was that only a lesbian would say something like that. I got out of the sturrups and went to the office manager, a hispanic man about my age. I complained about the issue and he couldn't understand why I was upset. I told him to imagine that his wife had been in there and the doctor had made the remark that "only a Hispanic would say something like that." He still didn't get it, and replied to me, "But you aren't a lesbian," to which my answer was, "Oh?" The nickel dropped and he assumed that my "Oh?" meant that I was. He got me another doctor, and wrote out a report to the HMO, which he showed me, and faxed to them in front of me.

The upsot of this is that when I hear stupid remarks, unless they are about the color of one's skin, which I can't do much about, I have become a political lesbian, pagan, etc. I have discovered that changing people's minds is not easy by any means, but that when they learn someone they know and like is whatever it is that they are prejudiced about, it sometimes makes them start to think about their positions. Sometimes, to my surprise and joy, they actually do rethink their postions and -- even if they don't approve of "insert minority group here", they begin to realize how what affects one group affects all groups eventually.
Sometimes, of course, I just get weird looks, but that's life. And of course, the one prejudice that doesn;t seem to work on is sizism, which seems to be the last socially acceptable prejudice.

Anyway, however youdecide to handle (or not handle) it, don't worry. You can't resolve all the problems in the world, and picking your battles wisely is part of larning how to resolve the problems you can.

Hugs, and much love to you, and if you need a shoulder, find me.

Re: Wow, Kitanzi

[kitanzi.livejournal.com]

That's marvelous! I like that a lot! The main factor in my self-doubt on this, though, is that this is at work, and for this job I'm particularly vulnerable to be fired on anyone's whim. It's a temp job, you see - all this place has to do is say "Sorry, don't need her." to my temp agency. They may find me something else, they may not. They could as easily say "We have you in our files - don't call us, we'll call you." None of this amounts to being fired, for sexual orientation or anything else, in any legal sense I know of. Hugs back, and thank you again. :)

ARgh!

[folkmew.livejournal.com]

HUG. For what it's worth, I am seething a bit more mildly just from hearing an NPR bit about attempts to stop gay marriage by our president (blech yuck patooie - sorry have to do that when I think of him) and others. It was in response to the Vatican's denouncement of gay marriage. I was frankly appalled at the one guy they had on who said things about the bible saying that homosexuality is a sin (yeah, great, the bible also says you have to marry your daughter to her rapist as my husband so likes to point out to bible quoters). He also said that "gay marriage hurts us all" and I just couldn't begin to imagine HOW? Sigh.

As someone who has decided that for all practical purposes she is "straight - but easily bent" (as my roomate used to say) I would be thrilled if my gay friends could legally marry and I can't see how it would hurt anyone. Ironically one of the things this religious guy was saying was how gay marriage would weaken us as a society because it would weaken family values and promote promiscuity!! All I could think was "ok, so if you happen to want to have sex with someone of the same gender it will somehow weaken family values if you want to do it permanently and under the same type of legal and social public comitment that marriage brings in our society?" sigh...

My initial reaction to reading in your post about the NY school was "cool!". The seperate but equal argument is compelling though. What makes it reasonable to have a seperate "high school of performing arts" but not a LGBT school? I guess the prejudice associated with the latter? Ok - enough rambling mew - go back to bed!

Re: ARgh!

[kitanzi.livejournal.com]

My favorite set of responses on the "Gay marriage would devalue the institution of marriage" all point out that between Joe Millionaire, The Bachelor and all the other, similar absurd shows we've seen in the last year or two, the institution of marriage has little to fear in comparison from gays who actually want it. :) Yeah, the argument that gay marriage will lead to more promiscuity baffles me too.

As far as the school goes, my immediate gut reaction was that it was a bad idea for a number of reasons, including that students would automatically be outed just by attending. I don't know how they're setting this up - is this something where the students get to elect to go? Or will faculty at other schools try to dump any student they think is gay (and therefore, of course, trouble) over there? Still, a possible precedent would be a number of single sex schools. They're rarer now, but i'm given to understand that a lot of women only colleges, for instance, turned out a lot of strong, intelligent women who credited them for that. You can probably name me some - were the "seven sisters" in MA for women only? I can't recall. They are less common now - maybe the need is less now. I don't really know that that's a valid parallel, but it's the closest I can think of. My gut reaction is still that it's a bad idea, though. *shrug*