Quietly seething

[kitanzi]

I live and work in the South now. I'm a Damn Yankee to my coworkers, though they are polite about it. I know perfectly well that my lifestyle, were I dumb enough to talk about it at work, would label me a freak and a deviant.

Right. So, I'm sitting here quietly sick and furious at myself after the discussion that was underway when I came in. NYC has opened a high school for GLBT students. The consensus in this department, with NOT ONE DISSENTING VOICE, is apparently that not only is this ridiculous, but "those people" should take the consequences of their choice of sexuality, and having children exposed to homosexuals will only corrupt them and cause them to be homosexual. Further (and coming from a half dozen black women, this seems the cream of it to me), "People should live with the laws as they are and not try to get new ones made to give them any more rights." They consider themselves very progressive for allowing "those people" to do what they want in their own homes, as long as they don't have kids or in any way affect the upbringing of any kids, since everyone knows that's what makes kids gay, and that's a terrible thing to any right thinking Christian.

I'm not making any of this up, and I don't know if I'm angrier at them, or at myself for sitting here and shutting up. Mostly I feel sick. I genuinely think that if I made the comments I made above, it would start a shitstorm that would end in me apologizing for everything I said (that I believed, and that would make me more sick than just not talking), or being fired for making trouble and being "racist".

I like these people, though I was considering just yesterday how none of them really feel like friends. Some of this was coming from the one person here that I seriously respect. I knew I didn't fit here - I had not had my face slammed into it quite so hard before, though.

Comments

[browngirl.livejournal.com]

Further (and coming from a half dozen black women, this seems the cream of it to me), "People should live with the laws as they are and not try to get new ones made to give them any more rights."

As a Black woman, I agree with you on the deep, vast, bottomless hypocrisy of this statement. As me, I agree with you on all of this. I know all too well how this feels, and I wish I knew what (besides forcible clue implants for certain folks) could make things better.

There are times when martyring oneself won't do anyone any good, and recognizing that is not cowardice.

*big tight hug*

A.
thinking of you

[autographedcat.livejournal.com]

I know. There's idiots all around. One thing to keep in mind is that people can be basically good and still hold completely flawed opinions and beliefs. We can ignore those easier when they don't hit so close to home, like this one, but it is important to remember, at times. *snuggle*

FWIW, I also think it's not a very good idea to have a special school, but for exactly opposite reasons -- segregating the kids just reinforces to them, and more importantly to the straight kids, that there's something fundamentally wrong and different about being gay, and that it's ok to exclude them from mainstream society. I think it's more important to spend time and resources educating the mainstream that being gay is just like being blond or green eyed or left handed or what have you -- it's a characteristic, but it doesn't define a person or their worth.

And I think we're making very slow progress toward that goal, and I think that's WHY you're seeing so much more hysteria from the other side -- when things aren't changing, the opposition is quiet, because things are the way they'd like them to be.

[kitanzi.livejournal.com]

Good points... I will especially concentrate on the first one, because I genuinely do like and respect Sandy - probably the only one here I could say that about.

[maedbh7.livejournal.com]

Of course, if you do decide to go all martyr about it (and put your job on the line), let me know. I can point you towards all kinds of useful resources and comebacks. *hugs* -H...(*whaps your co-workers with a karmic 2x4*)

[adamselzer.livejournal.com]

I never cease to be amazed by the extent to which being homophobic is still socially acceptable.
But I think we've come along way. We've gone from outrage about Ellen to having Will and Grace being a big hit in just a few years. Not huge progress, or even real progress, but progress. Not like Canada's progress, though.

[cellio]

Oh my. What a load of hypocritic crap.

But losing your job over speaking up is something you should only risk if your speaking up can do some good. It doesn't sound like this is the case here. If you think any of your coworkers have latent clues about this, you can talk with those ones privately. If not, you're not going to change any minds anyway, so speaking up for the sake of abstract defense won't do any good for anyone. (If, on the other hand, they were in the process of actually abusing someone, as opposed to just talking crap, that would be different.)

[filkerdave.livejournal.com]

I happen to thing that a GLBT school is a frighteningly bad idea; "seperate but equal" is surely the former but rarely the latter.

That said, I think that gently asking if they've read any of the research on homosexuality being more likely inborn rather than a choice isn't out of line. (It's best to have sources on hand, and don't sound like "Ha ha ha! Don't you KNOW this? You're so STUPID!!!")*

(I do get this a bit, insofar as both of my kids are in scouts, and one thing I really DON'T like about the scouts is their attitude towards gays -- and I'm not shy about saying how wrong it is)




* I don't think you would

[bardling.livejournal.com]

What a shitty situation to be in.

for what it's worth - I'm making assumptions based on the context as to what GLBT means, but I disagree with separate schools, I don't think they're a good idea, though I wouldn't obstruct people trying to achieve something positive in this way either. I also highly disagree with the further views expressed by your co-workers, but don't think you're a coward.

If you did want to do something, I think questioning would be better than disagreeing, confronting. You might get through to some of them on reflection, if they haven't turned their thin king of completely. Then again, by the sounds of it they're too busy agreeing on their views to think or consider them.

My stance would probably be quiet disagreement on a "my opinion isn't relevant to you people" basis. No use battering one's head against a wall of bricked up ears and brains. That doesn't achieve anything, except maybe to loose your job, if those people base who they hire on their beliefs. And that would be counterproductive.

*bhigghugs*

/me sighs at rigid stupidity

[the-gwenzilliad.livejournal.com]

Hey, I'm a master of keeping my mouth shut. I did it in Boston where my (in-law) family and many coworkers had serious racial preudices, and I do it down here, where I am the minority (pagan, bisexual, polyamorous, kinky), and the current of social and political thought does not flow in my direction.

Some of the worst, most prejudiced statements I've ever heard have come out of the mouths of women, gay people, pagan people, etc.-- and that doesn't mean I've never heard them from White Males, but I'm often genuinely surprised (though I shouldn't be any more) when people whose differences make them the targets of prejudice do not say, "There but for the grace of [insert deity or icon here] go I." And every single one of us has differences that could open us up to being the target of prejudice.

Another point to remember-- and please, people, do not flame me for these observations: Atlanta has a very interesting Black-White dynamic. Even though black people are classed as a minority, the City of Atlanta, more than any other city I've ever lived in, is pretty much black owned and operated. My sense of many of the Atlanta-born black people that I've met, especially while I was doing that music teaching job a couple of years ago, where I had to deal with various beaurocracies in the City of Atlanta, is that the kinds of points of view you're hearing in your office are common and accepted: Atlanta's black population is confident in its place, yet still views itself as an underclass. Atlanta is a place where you just about have to be a minority to get a city contract, you just about have to be homeless to qualify for things like reduced income housing (I would not be able to get free or reduced income housing in the City of Atlanta, for example), the department of social services has been known to write down that a house is filthy because the coffee table isn't dusted, yet you just about have to be black to be elected Mayor. It's not just the south you're experiencing, although if you went out into the Boondocks, you'd see those attitudes from folks black and white alike, it's the south viewed through the very strange lens of Atlanta.

[sdorn.livejournal.com]

Since I never can think of clever, polite, and eye-opening things to say at the time, I have to memorize the important bits ahead of time. My favorite for this is the formula suggested by Miss Manners, when hearing a prejudiced comment: "You may not be aware that my [relative] is [slurred adjectival label]." It does not matter, according to her, whether the statement is realistic or even plausible. So, in the future, my mother or father will be Black or GLBT when necessary to stop conversations, and so forth. And, if someone asks for additional comment, you can just say, "I thought you may not be aware of that, from what you were saying," and repeat that ad nauseam until the conversation turns to something else.

And, for "I wish I'd thunk of it at the time" ideas, ...

• You're right. A separate school is wrong. It might give people the wrong impression that being gay or lesbian is a choice.
  
• You're right. A separate school
is wrong. It might lead people to think that only those students in the separate school are gay or lesbian, and so many will use it as an excuse to ignore the rights of gay and lesbian students to be free of harassment and ignorant prejudices in any school.

• You're right. A separate school
is wrong. It would lead us down the road to "separate but equal" notions on sexual orientation. We've been down that road before in other areas of rampant discrimination.

Even if I wouldn't say those in reality, depending on how much I like my coworkers, I can still think of them.

Wow, Kitanzi

[otherdeb.livejournal.com]

What a difficult situation.

If I may take a moment, I want to tell you how I handled a situation:

I was in the ob/gyn's office, with my feet up, and he came in and was smoking a cigar. I asked him to put it out, and his response was that only a lesbian would say something like that. I got out of the sturrups and went to the office manager, a hispanic man about my age. I complained about the issue and he couldn't understand why I was upset. I told him to imagine that his wife had been in there and the doctor had made the remark that "only a Hispanic would say something like that." He still didn't get it, and replied to me, "But you aren't a lesbian," to which my answer was, "Oh?" The nickel dropped and he assumed that my "Oh?" meant that I was. He got me another doctor, and wrote out a report to the HMO, which he showed me, and faxed to them in front of me.

The upsot of this is that when I hear stupid remarks, unless they are about the color of one's skin, which I can't do much about, I have become a political lesbian, pagan, etc. I have discovered that changing people's minds is not easy by any means, but that when they learn someone they know and like is whatever it is that they are prejudiced about, it sometimes makes them start to think about their positions. Sometimes, to my surprise and joy, they actually do rethink their postions and -- even if they don't approve of "insert minority group here", they begin to realize how what affects one group affects all groups eventually.
Sometimes, of course, I just get weird looks, but that's life. And of course, the one prejudice that doesn;t seem to work on is sizism, which seems to be the last socially acceptable prejudice.

Anyway, however youdecide to handle (or not handle) it, don't worry. You can't resolve all the problems in the world, and picking your battles wisely is part of larning how to resolve the problems you can.

Hugs, and much love to you, and if you need a shoulder, find me.

ARgh!

[folkmew.livejournal.com]

HUG. For what it's worth, I am seething a bit more mildly just from hearing an NPR bit about attempts to stop gay marriage by our president (blech yuck patooie - sorry have to do that when I think of him) and others. It was in response to the Vatican's denouncement of gay marriage. I was frankly appalled at the one guy they had on who said things about the bible saying that homosexuality is a sin (yeah, great, the bible also says you have to marry your daughter to her rapist as my husband so likes to point out to bible quoters). He also said that "gay marriage hurts us all" and I just couldn't begin to imagine HOW? Sigh.

As someone who has decided that for all practical purposes she is "straight - but easily bent" (as my roomate used to say) I would be thrilled if my gay friends could legally marry and I can't see how it would hurt anyone. Ironically one of the things this religious guy was saying was how gay marriage would weaken us as a society because it would weaken family values and promote promiscuity!! All I could think was "ok, so if you happen to want to have sex with someone of the same gender it will somehow weaken family values if you want to do it permanently and under the same type of legal and social public comitment that marriage brings in our society?" sigh...

My initial reaction to reading in your post about the NY school was "cool!". The seperate but equal argument is compelling though. What makes it reasonable to have a seperate "high school of performing arts" but not a LGBT school? I guess the prejudice associated with the latter? Ok - enough rambling mew - go back to bed!